It was awful. He cried, awful, awful. Still, the sun was hot. Still, one got over things. Still, life had a way of adding day to day.

And that is so true. One can be miserable one day, think you’ll never be happy again. And then little by little you surprise yourself and you do experience happiness. Below is an edited and abbreviated version of our Q&A. You can listen to the full interview here on my podcast Elena Meets the Author, or wherever you listen to your podcasts. The Q&A also appeared on 26, a UK writer’s site. Also there are some spoilers below. Sorry.

Elena:  Hello Alison. Your main character Phoebe has come to a gorgeous hotel in Newport, Rhode Island that she can barely afford with no luggage, wearing an emerald silk dress, gold heels that hurt and the thick pearls that her husband who has left her gave her on their wedding night. So a very mysterious and sad start.

And then Phoebe is confronted with the wedding people, this happy bunch of strangers who are staying at this same hotel for what’s supposed to be a very happy occasion. Right away I’m intrigued.

How did the character Phoebe come to you?

When you were writing this book, did you start with that first chapter of Phoebe seeing everyone checking in for the wedding or did you think of that elevator scene where Phoebe confesses to the all-consumed bride Lila that she’s come to this hotel to kill herself?

 I started with Phoebe arriving at the hotel. And then worked my way into that elevator scene. That first chapter looks about the same, in terms of plot points as when I started.

I didn’t really know what I was doing until she was in that elevator with the bride. And the bride responded the way she did. After Phoebe says, I’m here to end my life, the bride says, No, it’s my wedding week. And you can’t do that. When I came back to the novel, after abandoning it for a few years, I realized that was actually my voice.

People always think I’m Phoebe, but in some ways, I’m also Lila.  That self-policing of sadness, saying, you can’t be sad now, or you can’t write a sad book. Not that I think this is a sad book, but I was afraid, oh, here I go again writing about something too dark.

 That’s exactly what the bride would say. And I don’t want to listen to the bride. Like I want Phoebe to feel her feelings and I want her to say what she wants to say. So that really actually freed me up to write the rest of the book.

Makes sense. Phoebe has come to the hotel to kill herself and somehow her grief frees her to be truly honest because for the first time in her life, she doesn’t care what people think of her.

She doesn’t need to be liked. That seems like an upside to grief, no more pretence, no more having to say the right thing. Do you think a little grief is good for us, and wouldn’t it be nice if we didn’t need grief to be more honest?

 That is true.  I agree that it would be nice if we didn’t need grief or some horrific life altering event to do it, right?

If I’m thinking back to the years following my brother’s death, my grief did allow me to be free in a way that most teenagers do not feel free, right? Because I thought, oh wow, here I thought all these things mattered. I was working so hard to look a certain way, talk a certain way, get certain grades and all these things that teenagers really care about, and are really small things.

These middle school concerns vanished from my life. None of them mattered, And, that was really nice. It allowed me, in a weird way, to be happier than I think I would have been, or at least less anxious than I would have been.

And then as my life went on and I re-entered the world again, and started caring about those small things, I did feel my anxiety come back. So, I think you’re onto something right? Grief frees us from our pedestrian concerns.

I did have an experience of grief  when I got divorced years ago.  I remember when people asked me how I was, poor person because I was so honest.  I wasn’t doing well and they were going to get to hear all about it. And now that I’m happy again, if someone asks me how I am, I just say I’m good.

 You start hiding.

You do dialogue so well. Here’s one two sentence exchange between the self-obsessed bride, telling suicidal Phoebe now is not a good time to end her life:

“This is the most important week of my life, the bride pleads. Same, Phoebe says.” Does your dialogue just come to you?

 I would say when I first started writing, I was a very dialogue heavy writer. It comes to me most naturally. Whereas, as I got older, I had to really learn how to write setting. I had to deliberately learn certain elements of craft. Dialogue was always the lifeblood of my writing and the books that I loved were always so dialogue heavy. I just I love talking.

I love long conversations in books and real life. I could talk on the phone for hours.

At what point did you realize that Phoebe needed to be a stranger in the story to get the other characters to open up to her?

That was baked in from the start.  I love the stranger’s perspective on things. I love when the character is watching something from afar. The stranger is able to see something that characters who are closer to the action miss.

So that the reader gets to see something also through the stranger’s perspective. I mentioned I worked at weddings. And that really. comes from my job as a photo booth attendant at weddings while I was in graduate school. I used to stand next to these photo booths, wedding after wedding, dressed like a wedding guest because we didn’t have uniforms. I would wear a cocktail dress, and people thought I was part of the wedding, and they would come over and end up talking to me way longer than I would have thought.

 I was (thinking) your whole family’s here, your friends are here. What are you doing talking to this random stranger? But it seemed to be fun for them to have a break from their friends and family. Or to have just a momentary break where they could actually tell some random woman, I don’t really think the bride is good for the groom or my dad’s a jerk and he’s been that way since I was a kid.

I felt like as the stranger I got the real dirt and no one else at the wedding would because they have to perform for each other.

So you knew Phoebe had to be a stranger and if she’s suicidal she’s even more of a stranger. She feels even more separate.

She’s in a whole world of just her emotions. And everyone else at the wedding is committing to this role for a few days, being their best self. And Phoebe has actually committed to the opposite. No more pretending.

I was intrigued by how Phoebe’s confessional spirit, how that would become contagious. How her honesty and frankness would actually start to rub off on these wedding people and serve as this very tempting way to be.

There’s a lot of death in this book, although that should not turn readers off. The deaths have already happened before page one, and they’re more in terms of how they shape those left behind.  A lot of people are grieving but pretending not to be in pain. Can you talk about grief and societal pressure to pretend you are okay when you’re not?

I think I suffered from that for a long time. Because I was a teenager when I was grieving and almost no one else I knew was, so I was really trying to hide it. And I carried that through for many years into my twenties. It’s like an extra form of grieving on top of the grief. Managing your grief for other people. I really try not to do that anymore.

You mentioned something in another interview, about how when you used to take creative writing classes and the teacher would ask the class to figure out all the traits of these different fictional characters.

You had a really hard time with that. What worked for you was having one thing only that you knew about a character. And then you could go on from there. You said in this interview that you liked the process of figuring out who that person was, from knowing only one thing at the beginning. Can you talk about that?

That is something that I really love about fiction, when fiction writers take someone who seems like a stereotype and then increasingly complicates that stereotype. It mirrors my experience of (life) Like,  if you are meeting a stranger or you’re seeing someone across the way at an airport or at a wedding, you don’t have that much information to work from. You make an assumption about them.

I just love in life when I make this quick judgment about someone and I love it when it’s especially negative.  I’ve had so many experiences where I get to know a person and I discover they’re the opposite of what I thought.

I loved how your book deals with so many heavy life issues like loneliness, life not turning out how you had hoped it would, the betrayal of someone you love, and of course, someone you love dying, and you inject a little levity, a little humor.

Can you explain how you think humor helps us in our darkest moments?

Humor is one of the key things that helps me in my darkest moments. The most profound experience of grieving that I had was losing my brother, and I remember thinking I am never going to laugh again. I don’t see how anything could be funny.

I don’t see how as a family we could ever laugh again. When we’re really in a dark place, we can be very black and white, very apocalyptic.

Humor has surprised me the most. Because you don’t plan for it. It just happens. It’s just spontaneous.  I remember the first day that we found out that he had died, I invited one of my best friends over, just to kind of have some company. And we were sort of struggling in conversation, right? Like who knows what to say in that moment. And so she said at some point, you know, our other friend, she’s really mad at us right now because you didn’t invite her and only invited me…

 Oh, gosh.

The day before his death, that comment would have made me nervous, like, oh no, someone’s mad at me. But on the day of my brother’s death, because of what was going on, we just started laughing hysterically, almost in a trauma like way.

The ridiculousness.

The ridiculous, the absurdity.  And that was such a stupid small thing. But I do think it was key in reframing the whole thing. I wasn’t planning on laughing today, but I did. And I couldn’t have predicted how I would have laughed so it just opened the door. You don’t know what’s coming

Sometimes that’s all you need.

So if the easiest part of writing this book was the dialogue, what was the most challenging part? 

Pushing myself to consistently be honest throughout the book. There were a few parts where I stopped writing for a few months or so mostly because I didn’t feel like going to that dark place, or because I didn’t feel like being in the headspace of someone who is about to take a bunch of cat painkillers.

Cat painkillers that smell like tuna. I loved that little detail. Your book is packed with details that made me chuckle. 

 I’m really just looking for the comedy at every possible moment. (Anyway),  it’s not because I didn’t want to write these things. I would have had no problem writing them if I knew no one was going to read them. But there was just something about wanting to hide my sadness or grief.

 I think other writers feel that too.  That you avoid in your fiction what you tend to avoid in life.  So I felt like if I write this dark character, everyone’s going to think I’m her. Or if I display a knowledge of sadness and grief, people are going to think I’m sad, and not wanting to be perceived that way.

 I had to coach myself through those parts. I found that challenging, but ultimately became the most wonderful part of writing this book. And now getting to connect with people over it and actually finding that people are pretty receptive to those kinds of conversations. Whereas I had only imagined all the negative things they would say.

 Yeah. No, no, it was good. It’s very well written. All the flashbacks to her marriage and, her inability to have a baby. It was sad, but it was a good sad, I was happy when she got to a lighter place.

 That was really the question I was having at the time. How do you move on from things that are never going to feel okay. There are just some things that are never going to feel good, like wanting to have a baby and not being able to. That’s never going to feel good.

You have to figure out a way to live your life and be happy, or as happy as one can be.

As a kid, I thought, well, this was my big tragedy, and it’s done early. So, I imagined  the rest of my life was only going to get better and happier, no more loss. But you’re always encountering these things that you can’t make better. So, for me, writing this book is getting Phoebe to that place, thinking about all those small little moments that would help someone move on.

You succeeded. I feel like at the ending, Phoebe has survived and she’s going to be fine. And, that’s the end of my questions.

Thank you so much, Elena

Thank you!

November, 2024

The post Q&A with Alison Espach – The Wedding People appeared first on Elena Bowes.

Clare also shows how friendships with people younger and older can be life enhancing and the importance of finding your own community. She does this in a light, never preachy, often funny way that leaves readers, or at least this reader, feeling a bit better about the world. My Q&A has been edited for brevity and clarity. You can listen to the full interview here on my podcast Elena Meets the Author.

Can you briefly tell us about the path that led you to become a novelist at age 50?

When I was younger, I dreamed of being a novelist. From the moment I discovered stories, I wanted to be able to write them. That was my great dream. But life gets in the way. I worked in advertising for 20 years.

I wrote nothing apart from PowerPoint presentations and emails and shopping lists. And then in 2015 I got to the point where I realized that my life was going seriously off track because I had picked up a rather major dependency on alcohol and my wine o’clock habit was completely out of control.

I was drinking about 10 bottles of wine a week, which is way too much. I mean, that’s way over the government guidelines and it was having all sorts of impacts on my life. So, I knew I had to quit drinking, but I was too embarrassed and ashamed about the situation I found myself in to talk to anybody about it.

I didn’t talk to my doctor. I didn’t talk to my husband. I didn’t talk to my friends. What I did do because I needed some form of therapy was I started an anonymous blog, and I called it Mummy was a Secret Drinker. I wrote in that blog every day. I wrote about what I was going through and all the research I’d been doing and how I was feeling. That blog went viral and then became a memoir called The Sober Diaries, which was published at the beginning of 2018.

And by this stage, my new addiction was writing, and I really didn’t want to stop writing. I absolutely loved it. But I didn’t want to carry on writing about my own life, so I thought I’d try writing about imaginary people instead. And that became my whole new career.

You wrote a wonderful blog about how author Anne Lamott’s book, Bird by Bird, motivated you to keep writing your first book. In a nutshell, for those who haven’t read Anne’s book, can you explain how it applies to so many of life’s challenges?

I love that book. And funny enough, Anne Lamott doesn’t drink either. She quit drinking many years ago. She writes that the expression ‘bird by bird’ comes from a story from her childhood where her little brother had a complete meltdown one evening because he suddenly realized that he had a school project due the next day and he hadn’t done any of it.

He was supposed to have spent the previous semester working on this project about birds. He was supposed to cover I don’t know, 20, 30 different birds. And he was completely beside himself in floods of tears.

He said to his father, ‘I can’t do it. This is the end of my school career. I’m going to be in such trouble.’ And his father sat him down. He said, ‘Now don’t panic. We’ll just take it bird by bird, buddy.’ And they did. They took it bird by bird. And by the end of the night, they had a whole project on birds to hand in.

Anne talks about how writing a novel is very much like that. If you worry about having to produce 100,000 words, the whole thing can seem overwhelming. But if you just think about each page, each chapter, or even each paragraph, you just take it bird by bird, within a relatively short period of time, you find that you’ve got a whole novel.

And giving up alcohol is absolutely about bird by bird. The Alcoholics Anonymous expression of one day at a time, is absolutely what gets you through addiction. If you worry about, can I stop drinking forever? You’ll never even take the first step. If you think, can I stop drinking just for today? The answer to that is always yes. Can I just write about one bird? Yes, of course you can. If you write about one bird enough times, you’ve got a whole project. If you write one chapter enough times, you’ve got a whole novel. If you have one day without drinking enough times, you’ve been sober for a decade.

It’s a really good lesson. Breaking things down to just one little task at a time rather than thinking of something as a humongous project. I have a Post-it taped to my desktop that says, Bird by bird buddy.

Oh, brilliant. It’s good for teenagers as well. If you have young people in your life who are struggling, just saying to them, ‘Look, can you make it through until the end of tomorrow? And if you can do that, you can make it through to the end of the following day and the end of the day after that.’ It helps the whole world stop feeling overwhelming.

Do you know anyone like Daphne, your principal character who at age 70, is sharp, chic, feisty, opinionated, and as witty as they come, an original with a fabulous, checkered past? I want to be Daphne when I grow up. But are there people you modelled her after?

 She’s modelled after the sort of woman I want to be when I’m 70. She isn’t modelled after any one particular person, but she’s modelled after an amalgamation of characteristics that I found aspirational.

At the beginning of the book, Daphne’s not really a very nice person. She’s very spiky. She doesn’t like other people. She’s very critical of everybody around her. And she doesn’t have any friends. She thinks she’s slightly better than everyone else. In many ways, you wouldn’t want to know somebody like Daphne.

I wanted to explore how even the most unlikable people in the right circumstances can be magnificent. And by the end, I think everybody is rooting for Daphne and she’s great, but it’s not where she starts off. She’s certainly not perfect, But I think the most interesting people aren’t perfect.

 I liked that even at the beginning when Daphne was unpleasant and snooty, she was always funny. And had a plan. I never felt sorry for her.

I’m really pleased about that because that was exactly what I wanted to avoid. With older characters in novels, you are encouraged to feel pity for them, and I didn’t want anyone to pity my characters. They’re often in quite precarious situations, and they’re not always the nicest people, but they’ve all got agency.

Daphne does yoga and Pilates every day. And she’s very strong for her age and she carries a walking stick, not because she needs a walking stick to walk with, but because she uses it as a weapon, and she uses it to clear people out of her way if necessary.

The rest of the Q&A can be found here on 26, a UK site to promote the joy of words.

Happy Summer

July 2024

The post Q&A with Clare Pooley – How to Age Disgracefully appeared first on Elena Bowes.